Part I is here.
There will be nary a photo today. Just a cringe-inducing story.
Every Saturday afternoon, the husband gives me an amazing gift. He tends to the kids and sends me off so I can be ALL ALONE. Sometimes I do errands. Sometimes I go somewhere and eat a cheeseburger or a piece of cake or maybe ice cream. Sometimes I take long walks. Usually, I go to the library and I sit and read or write while occasionally looking out the window at the ducks. So a few Saturdays ago, I had just arrived at the library and was looking for a book (Winesburg, Ohio by Sherwood Anderson--I still have yet to start it because it is number four in my current stack) when I happened to overhear a conversation a dad and his son, who appeared to be about 9, were having with the librarian at the help desk. The dad said, "We've had a book on hold and we can't seem to figure out where it is." Then he said something else that led me to believe the book was for the boy. Then he said the title of the book. It happened to be a book I read in college that has an innocuous sounding title--a title that might sound like a book for a nine year old boy. Except the book is actually the story of a writer living in New York during the very hedonistic, drug soaked, yuppie intensive 1980's. NOT for nine year old boys. REALLY not. I'm wondering if he has some loopy English teacher who is trying to be "progressive." (I committed some sins of this nature with my high school students the first year I taught. I put a couple of books I had never read on the summer reading list because I knew were considered "classics". On the Road. I told 15 year old boys that they should read On the Road. I would do that differently if I had it to do over.) I debated whether or not to intrude. I walked up and down a couple of stacks. I found and checked out my book. They are still standing there. I decide to say something:
Me, to the dad: "I am so sorry to be eavesdropping, but can I ask you a quick question?"
The Dad: "Uh, sure?"
Me: "Is Bright Lights, Big City like, assigned reading at his school? Because it's really not a kids' book."
The Dad (blushing): "Oh, NO! Actually that one is for me. I'm in this reading group and it's our next book."
(Wince with me, won't you??)
Me (MORTIFIED, but yet, still can't stop talking): "OH!! GREAT. I just, you know, I read it in college and don't really remember much of it except that there was really just LOTS of COCAINE? LOTS. SO much cocaine. And so anyway, I have kids and I just felt like I was SUPPOSED to say something. (at this point I notice that the librarian is glaring at me. Her eyes said something along the lines of, "Simmer down Tipper.") So, again, I'm sorry for being a busybody. Enjoy the book!!"
The Dad (even brighter red): "Um, sure?"
It was clearly not one of my best moments. I have shown my face in the library since then, and I feel like the librarians are watching me, expecting me to go all Fahrenheit 451 at any moment.
See you tomorrow! And in the meantime, don't let your kids read any books about cocaine, or I will CALL you OUT.
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17 comments:
Well, I got Izzy a book recommended on Orange Marmalade. It had the word "ass" in it (and no in the KJV or Aesop's Fables context). And "butt." I told her she could only use them if a snake bit her (as had happened in the book). Oops. I guess I should be more careful in the future...
Yes, but imagine how you would feel if you hadn't said something... if it was me, I'd be haunted for days thinking of how I should have spoken up to save the innocent child's mind from all that cocaine. :)
Jo--did a snake bite someone IN the ass? I think the Orange Marmalade lady generally does a good job of describing the books and giving a general recommended age. I still try to read just about everything before I let Harper read it , but there have been a few exceptions. I think you handled it well. Words scare me less than concepts at this point, at least I think.
I think the snake bit the foot and he said something like, "Get your ass over here!". Perhaps he called someone an ass and said to get your butt over here. But both were in the story, which she announced at the dinner table w/ Abby and Aiken.
Just looked it up and here's her description: "Great read for those who don’t mind (or relish) a few gross images and some blood — especially well-suited to boys ages 11 and up." Amazon suggested age 10, so it was my fault. I must've not read it all. The picture's pretty cutesy. I was hurrying and thought it was a picture book.
Toby is halfway through Fellowship of the Ring. Is that what I am supposed to let an 8 year old read? The cocaine book sounds like it would be a great follow-up. I'd better put it on hold. I don't mind letting them read most things, it tends to spark a lot of interesting conversations. But then again I read bonfire of the vanities in the 3rd grade, so perhaps my perception of how this is supposed to work is slightly skewed. My parents always just said we could read anything on the shelves at home, and come ask us if there are things you don't understand.
Maggie,
I really wasn’t that worked up about the word “ass.” We’d come across it in other stories (usually either in the context of idiot or donkey). But as a child who LOVES mischief and getting a reaction, Izzy doesn’t need any fodder. I am letting her finish the book.
I do want to preserve her innocence though. We have had “the talk,” but there is still much she does not know (in her mind, intercourse is entirely for procreation and I’m not correcting her yet). I give her a lot of freedom. We’ve read some stuff that others think is crazy, but there is such a small bit of time for them to be innocent and just enjoy a world of fantasy and possibility. To not know about the horrors (mine have learned too much already from history lessons). To not be exposed to the likes of promiscuity and mass genocide.
I know kids younger than 5 or 6 tend to imitate what they see on TV regardless of the intended message. I suspect it’s a little like that with reading. If we’re reading “Peter Pan” or “Tom Sawyer” (we haven't read it yet), I’d better be prepared for much mischief. At 8, they have more discernment, but my daughter is still prone to push all the limits. I don’t think there are many books, with the exception of Dickens, Twain, or Austen, that she’s asked to read and I’ve said, “Not yet.” She isn’t ready for these on her own, but wants me to read them to her. I just keep lots of books I deem “appropriate” around and she devours those. We have read "The Hobbit," but haven't moved on to the rest.
My other argument is that there are so many wonderful children’s books, why rush to the older books? It’s hard to get a 15 year old to read Pooh, but an 8 year old can always read Dickens later.
I think I will always weigh (at least until they are old enough to choose wisely for themselves) whether or not the literary merit of the book outweighs any content I think might be objectionable. Bright Lights, Big City is NOT great literature. Tolkien is. Plus, Tollkien and I share a generally similar worldview. I'm pretty sure Jay McInerney (I think that was the author's name) and I do not.
Bonfire of the Vanities in 3rd grade, huh? Did you actually go to your mom and ask her about things you had questions about? I think I would have been too embarrassed. Or most of it probably would have gone over my head--I didn't even read the naughty Judy Blume books until 6th grade or so.
Also, I like what Jo mentioned about letting them enjoy kids' books as long as possible, because once you move on, it's doubtful they will ever come back. I feel like we are still finding new treasures when it comes to children's literature, and I am not ready for Harper to think she's too grown up to enjoy them.
This is great discussion ladies! Thanks for contributing!!
I think part of my issue is that my oldest is a boy, and even though it doesn't make sense, I seem to feel less need to protect his innocence. He is also the one who is extremely curious and pushes himself to read all sorts of things. And he is a huge question asker, pretty much everything he opens leads to a zillion questions. Between that and exposure to the older boys on the block, we've covered all the major curse words and had an introductory lesson on what they mean and why we don't use them. And A is always around listening, so she's got them all down too. While we're pushing on to harder reading for school, she's still very much enamored of picture books and would prefer them any day. At 6 T was desperate to ditch picture books. Now he reads them to his siblings every day, so I feel like at least he is back to having some exposure to them.
Part of my trouble is the staggering quantity of pages he can read, we're currently on about a 3-5 chapter books a week routine. (Tolkien is slowing us down) I can't imagine what he'll be able to get through this summer. So we've already covered pretty much all the child lit classics I can think of, plus the junky R.L. Stine, graphic novels, etc. that he brings home from the school library. He also has some esoteric non fiction interests. He has a bizarre interest in WWII, and we exhausted all the kid resources I could find, so he has read several books that were really meant for adults. So we've covered all sorts of topics about war and death and Nazis and religion and extermination and nuclear weapons and radiation sickness and everything you can think of that could make my head hurt thinking of how to frame it for a little kid. I can't imagine my 6 year old daughter will every want to read any of those books, even as an adult, or have any interest in a serious discussion about these things. She usually just wanders off once we start talking. But I'm trying to lay the groundwork and emphasize that we can have a family discussion about anything you encounter out in the real world and that the best place to get a straight answer is from your parents. So I really don't do much sugar coating. My parents were pretty good, but I do feel like religion and race were two hot buttons where they just were never sure what to say and were just so clearly uncomfortable about the topic that you quickly learned not to ask about that again. I don't want a repeat of my experience, so I am striving for a cool, calm and candid reply.
He did just devour a new set a friend gave him for his birthday, the William Joyce Guardians of Childhood series. There are currently 3 chapter books and 2 picture books. They are fantastic, and the illustrations in the picture books will make you swoon Patti. If your kids haven't read them you should get them. The stories are just amazing. I've found him sitting in the library just gazing at the picture book illustrations. So I think maybe you can go back, or at least still enjoy, even if you have started to move on to bigger books.
My comment was too long, so blogger made me split it up!! Clearly I should just go to bed...
I was less of a question asker than T is, but I did have a couple, mostly related to motives. I do think kids read adult literature with a different set of filters, because I don't remember much of the lascivious bits from childhood, but I picked it up a few years ago and was surprised. I think kids often skim through parts they can't relate to. My parents did not share much in terms of "the talk" so I think I probably just didn't have much context to process any of that. I seem to have come out on the other side of it all none the worse. But at 9 or 10 when the average kid's reading skills let them get through more dense material, hopefully they have mostly gained the ability to read the message, not just the behavior. I completely agree with Jo about younger kids imitating what they see. I've seen evidence of that in my house, which is part of why we have mostly cut out all English "kid" tv. The studies on that are just terrible. When you let them watch a show with characters arguing and then resolving the problem, kids just learn how to argue, and miss the resolving lesson completely. So we do watch some carefully selected Mandarin programming, NOVA (for T) and Nature (for A).
I also feel like I should say that I have almost all these conversations within earshot of the little people. I have done a lot of thinking on this topic and decided that with 4 kids and a newly 8 yr old biggest brother and a 4 month old youngest sister, there is a chasm between big and little. We parents are going to have to do a lot of proactive talking so that the older pair of siblings don't become the sole source of "information" for the younger pair. If we are not seen by the younger ones as being as honest and transparent as the older kids(once they are teens and young adults), they will stop coming to us altogether. I am trying to just make it part of our regular family life that if your exposure to the outside world causes questions, you can easily ask about them.
I do understand what you are saying and do try to always make sure I answer questions truthfully and thoroughly enough so they know I will talk about anything and they can come to me about everything. And as for the younger sibling always being around, that is why they were both privy to the sex talk. B/c of number three, I’ve asked them to either ask when he isn’t around or use other words (ex.: when referring to animals, use “mating” rather than my younger daughter’s favorite “sperm shooting.” I don’t think the neighborhood moms would appreciate having to explain that one if my littlest innocently used it!). If I’s had exposure to something and I don’t think a book would promote bad behavior (I don’t want her reading a bunch of junk w/ mean girl or gossipy behavior), then I would have less of a problem with her reading about it. I just don’t want to introduce things that could be destructive to innocence if she’s never encountered them. Also, I think there’s a big difference btween reading about violence and other things and watching them. But too much seems destructive as well.
Izzy is not consuming 3 – 5 chapter books a week, so we’re not running out as quickly. She also loves biographies and there are lots of good ones out there. She was not an early reader and while she’s probably above her level, it’s still a bit exhausting so she’ll color or play outside after a couple of hours. I don’t’ think she’s very fast.
I love history, so it’s ironic that I’m writing all this b/c I’m probably have introduced things quicker than I think perhaps I ought, but I try and keep it vague – w/o sugar coating it. A separate reason is that my older daughter is somewhat fearful, but loves reading about the Mongols, the Vikings, and other violent stuff. My younger daughter is extremely sensitive. There was a time when my oldest got nervous just crossing bridges. Ancient History and fantasy books are distant enough to keep fear at bay, but I don’t think she could sleep well at night if she were aware of just how stressful the world truly is. I don’t think it would help her to know in any way. And there’s a difference between knowing people were killed and knowing every experiment the Nazis performed. We do read the Bible and that has much violence and sex (though I tend to skip some of these stories when there’d be too much to explain - ex.: Lot and his daughters or Sodomites wanting to rape the angels).
There are two criteria I often consider: 1) Will it increase wisdom or understanding (many of our history studies fall into this category)? 2) Will it work toward the following admonition? “Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.” (Philippians 4:8). That said, not everything’s high minded, but they are general principles I try to follow. They don’t feel like I control their choices b/c there are so many around. I put tons on hold at the library and we pick them up quickly, so they don’t have time to pick through the shelves. Part of this is b/c my three year old is not quiet. The other advantage (and the reason why I don’t try to train him to be) is that there isn’t much time for them to ask to check out what’s often ridiculous or fluffy.
I also think it funny that "The Guardians of Childhood" is the title of the series given this discussion. We'll have to check it out.
Patti,
I reread your first part of "The Innocence Project" post. Ironic that I recommended the Kevin Clash documentary in light of the recent scandals!
Patti, In reference to part 1, we did listen to "Where the Red Fern Grows" the other week. We had a lot of driving to do one day and I foolishly reached the final death scene right before we arrived at ballet. I didn't mean for it to happen that way, but failed to come up with a decent excuse to turn it off w/o a spoiler. There were many tears and much lamenting. I had to cuddle the girls for quite a while before we could leave the car.
Abby's dancing lacked a spring and Izzy's face was completely blotchy. But, they both consider it one of their favorites.
Death isn't something I worry about in stories. I figure it's a part of life for everyone and it's not something to be scared of. But I still could've timed it better.
1. Jo--I did think it was funny/sad to read your comment from a year ago about the Elmo guy. I never did watch it.
2. I have smart friends.
3. I think the catharsis the girls received from Where the Red Fern Grows was probably cleansing. I, however, will not be able to handle that one ever again, and will wait until the kids are old enough to handle it on their own. After Sasha has died, perhaps.
4. Maggie--I love that T is so transparent with you, and agree that this is going to be a great thing when the issues he needs to process are in his real life, and not just in books. My oldest two are very introspective (or, as is the case with Hudson, non-spective) and I wonder if this might be a by-product of all my caution. I rarely know what Harper is thinking (other than her general mood, which is fairly easy to read in her expression) and this does worry me. I remember when a baby died in one of the Betsy-Tacy books, she happened to be reading it silently while sitting next to me, and she stopped, cut her eyes at me, and said, "I think something sad is about to happen." I suggested we read it aloud, and she seemed relieved. She then asked a couple of basic questions about why babies might die, but then never mentioned it again.
5. Helena, on the other hand, says exactly what she's thinking. She's the first one to ask specifically why some of our friends have different shades of skin color than her own. I'm sure the other two have wondered, but they have never asked. Not once. She also asks about people who are noticeably overweight (at the museum the other day she asked in a very loud voice , "who is that very fat guy?" It was a woman.) Anyway, I cringed when she said it, but it actually led to a really productive conversation. Harper and I met a guy from Rwanda a few weeks ago and he happened to have a small extra finger on the side of each of his hands. I saw her noticing (as did he--he made a joke about it) but she said nothing. I brought it up later and she did NOT want to talk about it. I guess I've somehow made her feel like I want to avoid any kind of topic that might be uncomfortable or sad or scary. I definitely need to work on this before we have The Big Talk.
6. I'm off to put The Guardians of Childhood series in my library queue...
Wow. So much said here. We're still going so slowly into bigger kid stuff. Elizabeth, by far the most sensitive (yet, anyway), won't even touch any books about dogs because she says, "In every book about dogs the dog dies at the end." I DID NOT TELL HER THAT. But "It's All Because of Winn-Dixie" (is that the title?) won't get touched. And we can forget about Old Yeller. And you'll love this: She wouldn't let me kill a cockroach because she doesn't want anything to die.
Growing up can be so hard, sometimes.
So since my original comments, I have been pondering this question a lot. Part of my parental laxity with the eldest has something to do with his level of sensitivity to written material. His take on Where the Red Fern Grows: "Why does everyone care that a dog dies? It's just an animal, that's what they do." He didn't like the book at all, and was annoyed that I made him finish it. Adult non-fiction called "Gunner positions in WWII aircraft": read cover to cover about 25 times. Factoids absorbed: approximately 2300 that I have heard so far.
I feel like I should throw out for those I don't know as well as P, I have a Masters Degree in Library Science. This gives me little insight in to picking appropriate material for children I don't know, but once I have identified a reading level, I can easily weed out the crappy (pardon my french) pop culture kid lit. The Ready Freddy, Junie B Jones, Wimpy Kid sorts of literature that librarians call "High-Interest for struggling readers." They are really designed for kids in the 4-8th grade age bracket who lag behind their peers in reading skills, so they have something "age-relevant" to read even though they struggle with basic skills for one reason or another. If I end up with a dyslexic kid (my husband is and it is inheritable), i'm sure I will one day thank my lucky stars it is available. But for now it's not in my house. For now if it's well above age level, it's usually at least something that we would tag as "well written." He plowed through all the Harry Potters in a month last year, and I did enjoy reading them as an adult, so I think that sort of qualifies under that headline. He started reading that first Percy Jackson book, but without the background knowledge, we quickly turned to my Edith Hamilton's Mythology, which he read cover to cover in an evening and prompted many, many questions. But then he really enjoyed the Percy Jackson in a way he wouldn't have otherwise.
Maggie,
Maggie,
One of my favorite books as a kid was the d'Aulaire's "Book of Greek Myths." Has he ever read it? It's not particularly advanced, but tons of fun. They also have a Norse Myths my kids enjoyed immensely. Nathaniel Hawthorne has "A Wonder Book for Boys and Girls" & "Tanglewood Tales" if he likes myths. They are beautifully written.
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